The Spine-Strengthening Doctrines Of Postmillennialism And Patriarchalism

The Majesty's Men Show
The Majesty's Men Show
The Spine-Strengthening Doctrines Of Postmillennialism And Patriarchalism

Hosts And Guests Of This Episode

Jared Sparks, Scott Tungay, Brian Sauve

Intro and Overview

The men talk about two topics which have been making a surge amongst men recently, much to the surprise of many.

We’re not surprised though. These are spine-strengthening doctrines, and especially for men.

We’re talking about the often-debated Postmillennialism and the culture-hated Patriarchalism.


That’s right. We’re going there.

While it certainly isn’t a requirement of anyone to be Postmil to be in the HNR.GD Network, it is a prominent view of most, which bears some discussion.

Patriarchalism, however, is clearly and unequivocally the Biblical teaching, and a foundational belief of all we do as The Majesty’s Men and the HNR.GD Network.

This will surely be only the beginning overview and exploration of these two topics, as are views on these two matters tend to flavor nearly everything we do as men.

Video Recording Of Show


Transcript Of This Episode

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[00:00:00] TMM Manly Voice: The Majesty’s Men is a multi-faceted enterprise for maximizing men and glorifying God. We wage war together, as men, for men— promoting the patriarchy by equipping and encouraging Christian men to throw off indolence and passivity, embrace virtuous masculinity, take dominion, and protect, provide, and preside as the adopted sons and heirs of God’s kingdom we are.

The Majesty’s Men hosts the HNR.GD Network—an alliance of exemplary men and their ministries, projects, businesses, and churches all around the world. In this weekly show, we speak with the numerous men of the HNR.GD Network, along with special guests and friends of the network, all about the understanding and application of God’s timeless truth to the timely topics and events of today.
We seek to work out godly wisdom on mission as men in every domain of life, leading and blessing our families, churches, and societies, as we go.

We seek to unashamedly apply every bit of God’s word to every bit of God’s world—creating culture and building Christendom so that we, or those who come after us, may see every knee bow before our King, as we fill the earth with the glory of God, for the good of all people. Join us in the fight and the fun!

[00:01:10] Jared Sparks: Welcome to The Majesty’s Men Show. I’m so excited to be back with you. And this is episode two. It’s going to be a great day today. I’ve got my co-hosts with me. We got Scott back with us and now we’ve got Brian Sauve on as well. And we’re just going to have a lot of fun talking about post millennialism and patriarchy guys.

[00:01:27] Jared Sparks: You doing? All right. Yeah,

[00:01:29] Scott Tungay: come on.

[00:01:31] Brian Sauvé: Yeah. Doing well. How bout you, Jared?

[00:01:33] Jared Sparks: Oh man. I’m doing great. It’s been a good morning this morning. I got some work on my sermon done this morning for this next coming Sunday. And we’re, we’re actually leading up to the last week of us as a church gathering in this current building.

[00:01:47] Jared Sparks: We’ve been there for five years. We’re moving into a new building. And so we’re excited about that, but I’m preparing for my last sermon for that building and. Uh, for our time in that building. And so I’ve had a good morning this morning. It’s, uh, things are going, things are going pretty good, but, uh, Hey, Scott wants to go and pray for us.

[00:02:01] Jared Sparks: And then we’re going to get to know Brian a little bit and have him update us on who he is and what he’s, what he’s all about.

[00:02:07] Scott Tungay: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, father, we love you. Holy spirit. We love you. Jesus. We love you. And we just thank you that this is a, uh, just a great time for us to really just discuss what it is you want to.

[00:02:17] Scott Tungay: Uh, how you want us to steward this earth you’ve given us. And also Lord, just to, um, try and convey what your heart is, uh, for us as men to, uh, just glorify you. And so Lord, we just, uh, we give our time to you today and we ask that you would have. Uh, and give us wisdom and that Lord, you would open the hearts of the men who are going to hear this in Jesus name.

[00:02:41] Jared Sparks: Amen. All right, Brian, why don’t you go ahead and just introduce yourself. Tell us about, you know, who you are. Tell us about your family, and you’re going to be a part of this show. So what means, tell us, tell us, uh, why in the world would we have asked you to come on the show, talking about masculinity?

[00:02:57] Jared Sparks: That’s what The Majesty’s Men show is going to be. Why, why are you in an, in on this thing?

[00:03:04] Brian Sauvé: I mean, if you look at me, it should be pretty obvious.

[00:03:08] Jared Sparks: Uh, yeah, absolutely. I’m kidding. If you don’t know. Cause right now, right now, I mean, Brian, Brian’s got the massive beard and you know, he’s got this chiseled physique as well.

[00:03:19] Jared Sparks: So I mean, it was a natural thing. Yeah, right? Yeah. Like all like me it’s got as well.

[00:03:24] Brian Sauvé: It’s pretty clear.

[00:03:26] Jared Sparks: All right. Tell us who you are, Brian.

[00:03:29] Brian Sauvé: Sure. Um, my name is Brian Sauvé and I am, uh, very Alexi. We’ve been married for 10 years. Last Friday, we have five kids, three boys, two girls, and a man God’s been.

[00:03:43] Brian Sauvé: We’ve been, uh, I’ve been a pastor out in Ogden, Utah at a church called refuge for a long time now, almost a decade. And, um, we’re a reformed church out here in Mormon land, uh, aiming to plant roots for the long haul. We really believe that the Lord has us here in Utah until we die, Lord willing. And, um, our, our goal is to build up some durable, slow.

[00:04:12] Brian Sauvé: Patterned institutions like a school, a church men will start businesses and care for their families. Well, and, uh, you know, see the Lord convert a lot of people here in Utah, where there are two or 3% Christians, um, and expand his kingdom here. So that’s what we’re about. That’s what I’m about in a nutshell.

[00:04:31] Brian Sauvé: And I also do music, make songs, there’s doing a lot of stuff, but that’s kind of. At the heart of it.

[00:04:39] Jared Sparks: Awesome. And guys, go, go download his albums. The newest wind just came out. Just pick that up the other day, phenomenal stuff. So if you’re not familiar with Brian’s work, you got to check that out and just speak from my perspective, also, Brian, the re you know, one of the reasons I wanted you on the show to be a co-host is a man I’ve learned a lot from you.

[00:04:55] Jared Sparks: It’s been neat, just being your friend over the last few years, but just. Continuing to see what the Lord is doing in Ogden, seeing what the Lord is doing in your family, and then the fruit really from your family, into your church, into the city. And then, and then beyond it has been pretty great to watch.

[00:05:09] Jared Sparks: And so, man, we’re excited. You’re part of this and it’s going to be a lot of fun, but uh, all right guys. All right. So we’re talking about post millennialism and patriarchy. And I want to just open it up to you guys and just ask, have you seen what I’ve seen, which is an uptick over the last few years and a rediscovery.

[00:05:25] Jared Sparks: Partial predator ism tied in with post millennialism, an optimistic view of the future. And then along a parallel track, seeing an explosion from the manosphere and then the Christian manosphere, which is an explosion and patriarchy and a, a real robust understanding, not just of complementarianism, but this explosion of Christian patriarchy.

[00:05:46] Jared Sparks: W what do you guys think?

[00:05:49] Brian Sauvé: Absolutely. I see that, man. I think when you have this. A lot of us that are in these circles now grew up through maybe like mark Driscoll, the gospel coalition. I think a lot of us came from sort of squishy evangelical corners of the, of the church and, uh, discovered whatever your pathway was, whether it was expository preaching or a reformed theology, or, you know, there was some pathway, but it seems like.

[00:06:20] Brian Sauvé: What happened as that resurgence, um, took hold. And I think Mars hill is, is at the, at the bottom of that too. A lot of what happened at Mars hill, um, 10, 12 years ago. Um, It became clear to a lot of men that there was something missing in the way that, um, that world was approaching questions like culture and family and masculinity.

[00:06:47] Brian Sauvé: And that the sort of complementarianism that had really taken root was pretty one-dimensional, um, really failed to, to reckon with natural theology, with things that were obvious about men and women, um, that was very much one dimensional in its handling. What should a man be? What is it, what does it mean to be masculine?

[00:07:06] Brian Sauvé: And it was pretty much pulled out of this one sort of one idea of servant leadership that kind of just sounded like, listen to your wife, do whatever she says, and she’s got bigger than you. And you’ll be fine. Right? Um, a lot of yelling at men, but not a lot of robust, um, understanding of natural theology and biblical theology and historical theology of masculinity.

[00:07:27] Brian Sauvé: And so I don’t know as much about the post millennialism side of things. I see the same. But I questioned whether that noticing that that lack had something to do with this, people started asking the question, well, what is, if not that, what is a man? What is a good biblical view of masculinity? Yeah,

[00:07:47] Scott Tungay: Brian, I, I identify, uh, Gregory with what you said there, you know, this kind of, oh my gosh, we’re losing, you know, and we don’t want to lose anymore.

[00:07:55] Scott Tungay: And then at the same time, this kind of varieties of natural grace, like you said, off of all these kinds of masculinity guys who are getting to the, to the natural grace kind of they’re either diagnosing the right problems. Uh, they’re seeing the right problems, but their diagnosis is not biblical.

[00:08:12] Scott Tungay: Prescription is not biblical or they’re prescribing a very good. Uh, prescription, but their diagnosis of the problem is not biblical, you know? And it’s like, wait a minute. We’ve got, we’ve got the, the, the real lens with which to see all of this stuff. And so it just becomes a thing of like starting to, to connect the dots.

[00:08:30] Scott Tungay: And I’ll be straight up honest with you guys. I mean, you guys are the, the theologian galaxy Brian’s here, but I was just stumbling along into all this stuff. I’m like, I’m tired of losing no more victim hood let’s fight. And so then all these guys start messaging. Are you post-meal is this post-meal and I’m not sure, you know, I, you know, I think for so many of us, it’s like, I don’t really care what the.

[00:08:53] Scott Tungay: I just want guys who fight, like no more losing and being happy about it.

[00:08:59] Jared Sparks: Yeah. Amen. Amen. Yeah. And I think that that’s the, you know, regardless of eschatology, maybe not regardless of eschatology, but that post-millennial vision, it ties in so well with the idea of, of men taking responsibility in what has been an.

[00:09:13] Jared Sparks: Over the last, you know, two or three years and recognizing, wait a minute, maybe, maybe the things that we have been talking about in complementarianism, which I was steeped in for 20 years or 15 years, at least. And in what I was steeped in is, you know, what I didn’t know was, was really compromised from the beginning.

[00:09:29] Jared Sparks: And that’s been so helpful for me to understand, uh, wait a second. There, there is, uh, we’re not just talking. Biblical sexuality, gender roles. With that one word that Brian was talking about servant leadership. There are real obligations, real authority that God has delegated to the man. And then post millennialism comes over here and it’s like, yeah, fight, win, build, start stuff, start institutions.

[00:09:51] Jared Sparks: And that seems to go hand in hand. Okay, great. I’ve got this responsibility. I’ve got this commissioning from the Lord. So I’m going to start building, I mean, so I see those two things really going together.

[00:10:02] Brian Sauvé: Yeah, that, that, that that’s a good, I mean, that connection so important to make theologically that when you understand what the gospel does, you start to understand both godly patriarchy.

[00:10:14] Brian Sauvé: And I think post-millennials, you start to understand that the gospel renovate it. It’s about making a new human. Shaped after the image of the God man, who is the perfect man and all that he is in his life. And so you start to, when you’re single, you’re saved, you’ve been given a new heart, uh, his laws written on it, his spirits in you.

[00:10:37] Brian Sauvé: And so over time, as we behold Christ we’re transformed into the same. Second Corinthians three. What is that going to do? It’s going to restore self-government it’s going to restore family government. It’s going to restore church government. And if enough of that happens, and I think this is at bottom, like the transformation.

[00:10:58] Brian Sauvé: He says it’s going to transform things around it. And over time, even have the potential to, I don’t know, make something like a city set on a hill that’s lit up with good works. So our father, so people would see those good works and glorify our father in heaven.

[00:11:14] Scott Tungay: Yeah. That’s great. You know, and isn’t that the exact.

[00:11:18] Scott Tungay: The exact worst case scenario of our enemy. Like if you look at Satan, what is he afraid of? He’s afraid of strong Christian man, strong Christian family, strong Christian churches, strong Christian men in civic government. Like that’s the absolute, you know, sometimes you can, you can really have a good life by just.

[00:11:36] Scott Tungay: Do the opposite of CNN and you would probably live a good life, you know, and it’s the same way. It’s like do the opposite of Satan. You know, what does Satan, what does he hate? The most strong Christian man with beautiful families, wholesome church and Christian man bearing the sword with wisdom and righteousness.

[00:11:56] Scott Tungay: Yeah, that’s probably a good thing to do if the, if the devil hates it. And if, if, if MRL man hate that.

[00:12:03] Jared Sparks: Yeah. Indeed. Let me just ask you a question, Scott, because you just introduce this just a second ago, you talked about how you’re tired of losing and you just, you wanted to, okay. Let’s win. Let’s turn the corner here.

[00:12:12] Jared Sparks: And you know, for the last, I dunno, so 40 years. And then minus the last 10 years, there was the big self-help movement. And now the last 10 years it’s turned into the self love movement. And a lot of that whole last 50 years has been big on, uh, the power of positive thinking and that, that sort of thing.

[00:12:31] Jared Sparks: And we all mock that because of its association with things like the prosperity gospel and, and that sort of thing that everybody loves to rag on, or at least we, we love to rag on 10 years ago, 15 years ago, but, uh, I think it’s a real there’s there really is this. Necessary shift that men need to make from what you call victim mentality into from losing to winning.

[00:12:51] Jared Sparks: When you explain that and just talk a little bit about that, because we don’t want to get this, you know, flippant, vapid, you know, just think positive, but we do need to wake up realizing I’m going to, I’m going to go out and do everything that I’m doing for the glory of God. And I’m gonna go win today.

[00:13:06] Scott Tungay: Yeah, I think so many like kind of pep. Preaches that get your hopes up and all this stuff. It’s we have to understand that faith goes with action. You know, so, so many of the, you know, like you said, the last 10, 20 years, you know, and I was all for it. I mean, I was huge into Tony Robbins and positive thinking and all the.

[00:13:23] Scott Tungay: But I never took actions because I was afraid. So I would hype myself up and get all, you know, in a good Headspace and make declarations. I was like, okay, are you going to now go and do, are you going to actually step out and go and do stuff? Or are you just going to stay in the faith zone? And that’s where, you know, it, it hits you hard, like faith without works is dead.

[00:13:43] Scott Tungay: And so the biggest thing for me is we have to have a. Uh, both having a hope and a vision and keeping our hopes up. And then it’s like, okay, we’re actually also, it’s okay to be in the desert to be in the prison to be going through hard times. Cause that’s, you know, that is the true criticism of prosperity gospel preachers.

[00:14:02] Scott Tungay: It’s like get saved brothers and then it’s happy sailing, you know, let’s all go on a cruise to Florida or whatever, and life is great. And it’s like, And, and so then when guys encounter a hardship, they’re like, but the prosperity guy told me I would be good. Like he told me everything was going to be okay.

[00:14:19] Scott Tungay: And we fold because there’s no. Uh, there’s no resolve theology or no resolve discipleship of being like, okay, chaps, we’re blessed, God loves us. And also you’re probably going to go through a desert season. You’re probably going to be chased out of the palace. You’re probably going to be imprisoned by jealous brothers.

[00:14:36] Scott Tungay: You’re probably going to have, you know, all these crazy things that the Bible says of these great men. You know, Abraham, David, Joseph, they all had crazy things happen to. While simultaneously being crazily blessed and loved by the Lord and having a calling. And so I think for us, the important thing of not being a victim is not folding, you know, we have this like either or dichotomy, it’s like either I’m blessed or I’m cursed.

[00:15:00] Scott Tungay: And it’s like, no, no, no, I am blessed. And my circumstances don’t mean that I’m now not blessed or not a son of God or not. Uh, you know, we have to kind of understand this thing. I’m like we can walk through a desert fully blessed, having fun, laughing while being pursued by soul, the IRS, the FBI, you know, the, the, whatever that, uh, kind of metaphor is for your life hard times, but it’s like, we’ve got to have this, this identity of, I am a king on my environment, you know, eventually over a passage of time and through action.

[00:15:30] Scott Tungay: My faith has to manifest onto the environment. My hope has to, uh, change mine.

[00:15:39] Jared Sparks: Yeah, let’s dynamite that Brian, you got anything to add to that at all?

[00:15:43] Brian Sauvé: Yeah. That I think Scott, that you really nailed the key difference there between this sort of like wish dream, new age, spiritual nonsense. Um, that’s just like sending out thoughts and prayers to the universe.

[00:15:57] Brian Sauvé: Um, and that’s going to change things or if I love myself enough or believe in myself, There’s this vital reality at the heart of Christianity, John 15. And it’s that we’re connected to the buying, like what, what is a Christian? It’s somebody who’s connected to the vine. And because of that, they can actually bear fruit.

[00:16:17] Brian Sauvé: There can actually be real things that you, and the thing about fruit is that you see it and you eat it and you can taste it. It’s something visible. Right? And so a lot of what’s gone wrong, even with, I think some of the culture of antinomian Christianity. Is that it has. Functionally denied fruit. It’s functionally denied that you should be able to see coming out of the fingertips of a Christian man and a Christian woman.

[00:16:46] Brian Sauvé: You should be able to see fruit. You should be able to see them because they believe Jesus. And they believe what he said about everything and not just about spiritual things, but about literally everything in Christ are hidden. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, knowing things and knowing what to do about things, wisdom and knowledge.

[00:17:04] Brian Sauvé: If that’s true, then fruit bearing is going to. Affect every aspect of our lives, right? It’s going to actually produce things. And so in Fe it’s the classic, cheesy metaphor is true in faith. We take up the sword and the travel, we go, we fight our enemies. We’re prepared to wage offensive and defensive. And we’re building and it hurts it and you’re going to get calluses bleed and it’s going to be painful.

[00:17:27] Brian Sauvé: And there’s no guarantee of, you know, when we say we’re millennialist, we don’t mean that an individual Christian life is going to follow this pattern of victory from victory to victory. We mean that Christ is preparing a bride and is conquering for a very long period of time. And so even if we’re faithful and bear fruit and die and suffer while being faithful, The Lord is still conquering over this long period of time.

[00:17:53] Brian Sauvé: And so we’re going to live and build as if that’s true as if I can actually send things downstream in history that are going to affect the future. Apart from Christ, I can do nothing, but because of the fact that I’m connected to the bind, I can expect that the Lord intends to use these ordinary means to affect literally generations.

[00:18:18] Brian Sauvé: And hundred than my life. Like this is the reality. I’m, I’m nothing. I am not that smart. Not that gifted. There are guys who are way better than me at everything that I do out there, but I fully expect for the Lord to use my life, to actually do something in the next several hundred years in the history of the state of Utah, it has has nothing to do with confidence in this guy.

[00:18:44] Brian Sauvé: It’s because I read the Bible and I, and I just believe that the.

[00:18:50] Scott Tungay: Yeah, that’s really good, Brian, because I think as well, you can kind of, you know, I’m loving, sitting on that parable of, of the buried talent. You know, so many of us dudes are just one talent. And we look at these crazy 10 talent guys and we’re like, I can never do that. And so we bury our talents and it’s like, that’s not Christian, that’s libertarian, you know, I’m like, I’m just gonna do me.

[00:19:10] Scott Tungay: And like, you know, I was like, no, no, no, God wants you to use your, even if you’ve just a one talent guy, do it to the glory of God. And, and we almost have to kind of have a reward theology that God always rewards obedience, you know? Cause that’s one of the biggest things for Christians and that’s what I kind of got sick of in my.

[00:19:28] Scott Tungay: Was this libertarian Christianity of it’s no use. It’s no use trying to, uh, to win. It’s no use trying to build something beyond our, our life. It’s no use giving my gift cause it’s so small and I’m all alone. And it’s like, no, that’s a wicked servant. Like you go and bury that one gift and go give it to the glory of God, you know?

[00:19:48] Scott Tungay: And if God wants to use it, then, then, then that’s, that’s up to God. I’m the one who has to actually go and do stuff and let God be the one who gives her.

[00:19:57] Jared Sparks: That’s really that’s really good stuff, guys. Okay. So there was something that just triggered a thought in me that Brian you’d mentioned antinomianism, and we’re talking about the possible, or the fact that, you know, Scott, you’re tired of losing.

[00:20:11] Jared Sparks: You know, fruit bearing these different things are coming together. And here’s the, one of the things that I’ve noticed. I wanna pitch it back to you here in a second. Brian, the gospel center movement and anti-Nazi antinomianism, which, which people would probably articulate in different ways. But I think one of the fruits of the gospel.

[00:20:28] Jared Sparks: Uh, the gospel centered movement has been this losing mentality. You know, our life is going to be a life of suffering and, you know, not being able to distinguish between justification and adoption and really staying with justification, never seeing that we’re adopted as. To do good works and then to see the fruit of those good works manifest itself right in front of you.

[00:20:52] Jared Sparks: And so I think one of the problems, some of the like catnip for Christian theology is imputation. When you understand amputation of Christ’s righteousness, it is just so life-giving and transforming. And that was my way into reformed theology was amputation of Christ righteousness. But then one of the things that confused me over the years was, you know, I viewed myself with this.

[00:21:14] Jared Sparks: Relationship with the Lord where he only saw the amputation, but didn’t actually discipline me as a son because he only saw imputation that’s it only Christ’s righteousness. And somehow theologically God recognizes the righteousness of Christ in me, but also recognizes there, there are things that need to be disciplined and changed.

[00:21:34] Jared Sparks: And so I think some of the gospel centered move at traps guys into I’m going to. The righteousness I’m declared righteous in Christ Jesus, but then doesn’t have the theological robustness to say, now, get to work without making that some sort of justification of faith and works. We don’t have those good categories.

[00:21:53] Jared Sparks: So Brian, do you see those playing in, into each other of, of a, of a theology of losing. And antinomianism tied in with the gospel centered movement, or maybe even a twisting of the gospel-centered movement. Do you see that those things going together at all and then Scott jump in if you want as well?

[00:22:07] Brian Sauvé: Absolutely. When, when you, when you understand that at the heart of what is often called the gospel centered movement, and it’s like, It’s bad when you, when you’re arguing against gospel centrality, it sounds like it because it sounds like you’re saying the gospel shouldn’t be central. Like no, the gospel should be central, but the whole, the whole gospel, the whole gospel is the good news.

[00:22:33] Brian Sauvé: Back to what we were talking about. It. That Christ is, has come to redeem mankind and Adam from sin and death to establish his kingdom, turn rebels into sons, bless them, change them, transform them, glorify them, and then establish this glorious, glorious, new humanity where by the time he’s done nothing, unclean will enter.

[00:22:55] Brian Sauvé: There will be no sin. It will just be glory upon glory upon glory. And that when we’re talking about the gospel, we’re talking about the whole of salvia. And including justification for certain, including amputation, but also including sanctification and glorification. So what gospels the gospel centered movement tends to do is to sound very skeptical.

[00:23:20] Brian Sauvé: Sanctification and sanctification talk and wisdom talk because it rightly identifies that there’s a danger with that. Talk of making people a proud, because they identified their security and their own, the works of their own flesh. That’s a real danger, or it removes security from sensitive believers who look at themselves and they know that they’re nothing without.

[00:23:45] Brian Sauvé: So those are real ditches you could fall in, but the answer isn’t is to teach about those things and to point them out and say, don’t go in those ditches, not to stop applying the texts and telling people to obey Christ and obey his kingdom because he said, he literally said that we are to be a people whose good works are put on display.

[00:24:06] Brian Sauvé: Like. So that people would see our good works and glorify our father in heaven. You know, something happened in our church a couple of years ago, there was a guy who theology nerd probably smarter than me left our church, um, because he was concerned about how much applicational preaching that I was doing and how, you know, how much I was speaking about wisdom and okay.

[00:24:31] Brian Sauvé: W say with something like education, here’s an unwise way of educating your children. Just send them to the public schools. Here’s a wise way, take responsibility in school. Do you know, do something else? And he said, That, um, what that does when you appeal to wisdom like that, is it necessarily sets up this tier of, well, there’s a good way of living.

[00:24:52] Brian Sauvé: There’s a better way of living and there’s a best way of living. And the best way is Christian homeschooling robust Christian educator. And, you know, on the low end, it’s like, yeah, your kids are in some school somewhere, but you make sure that you, you know, catechize at home and stuff, and that can be okay, whatever.

[00:25:09] Brian Sauvé: And he said, what that does is it leads to this elite Christianity and then this like just okay. Christianity. And so it’s legalism. And I was just thinking, how much of the Bible do we have to throw out of the window if we accept that sort of nonsense? Because of course, of course. Wisdom is going to imply that there is a better way of living than the contrary.

[00:25:33] Brian Sauvé: And this, I think that what’s gotten into people through this gospel center movement is the idea that the only acceptable way of thinking about the law, even if they wouldn’t ever say this out loud, but functionally is that would be wise to do. I didn’t think. Christ did it for me and his obedience was imputed to me.

[00:25:53] Brian Sauvé: So thank the Lord for his grace. Well, praise God for that. But then also I’m a new creation in Christ and now I’m going to walk after the Lord. Jesus.

[00:26:01] Scott Tungay: That’s really good. Uh, Brian ’cause I think, you know, now that I’ve always loved some old, uh, Texas preacher, uh, Andy Wommack, he said a while back. He’s like, if you haven’t got.

[00:26:14] Scott Tungay: If you haven’t got a heart to disciple people, you might as well shoot them in the head after they’ve said the sinner’s prayer, because if, if you’re not going to disciple a guy into God’s ways, cause God’s ways are better than our ways. We just end up looking like our pagan neighbors. And we’re just as sick as them.

[00:26:28] Scott Tungay: We’re just as broken. And so we have to have those things. I’m like God’s ways are better on in our time on earth. We want to not just get guys saved. We want to also get guys into the image of God while they’re still alive on earth and have peace and have joy, and actually looked like Jesus, while we’re alive on earth.

[00:26:47] Scott Tungay: We don’t want to constantly be the victim of like every Sunday, you know, someone’s like, all right, brothers, who would like to give their life to the Lord. And he’s like, yeah, me for the 12th time, please.

[00:26:56] Jared Sparks: Yes. And amen. I mean, we’re talking about the gospel of Jesus and the implications are earlier. You, you ripped off Doug Wilson and you know, pretty much anything I say is going to end up being re ripping off Doug Wilson or Brian Solvay or Scott Tonga, by the way, uh, theology comes down to your fingertips.

[00:27:11] Jared Sparks: And this idea of there is a way to live as a Christian. There is a way a Christian lives. Christianity is. Dying to yourself. Yeah. If anyone wants to follow me, take up your cross and our, what is it? Uh, uh, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me. Okay. There there’s self-denial that’s required. And then in that, following me, there was a way that we are training people to live.

[00:27:34] Jared Sparks: That is, you know, use the categories of good, better, best there’s. Okay. You can do this thing this way, you can live this way, but there’s a better tool to use to take that off. If you’re going to take that piece off the tractor, you need this kind of a tool. And if you want to, you know, you can do that with needle-nose pliers, but you’re gonna end up bloody and it’s going to take.

[00:27:53] Jared Sparks: 15 hours, but if you use the actual right tool to take that piece off, you’re going to be able to take it off in five minutes and there is a better way to live the Christian life. And I think a lot of instruction, you know, a guy that, uh, I think was, uh, kind of a weirdo and a lot, a lot of ways, his name was Dallas Willard.

[00:28:09] Jared Sparks: And I don’t, I I’ve never read anything from Dallas Willard that I’ve actually liked, but he did say something one time that stuck with me. And he talked about how there may have been in the divine conspiracy. Or one of, one of his other books, he talked about how the church has that no church that he knew actually was training people to live the way Jesus lived.

[00:28:31] Jared Sparks: And there’s a part of the way that he was saying that was totally w that I would completely repudiate, but there’s another side of it. Of just teaching how to, you know, what, just practical theology, uh, just theology in the every day that we have done a very difficult or very poor job of doing that we need to, and we are rediscovering and I’m seeing that in the lives of the guys that I’m, I’m working with right now, where I’m just teaching them how to mow a yard and how.

[00:28:58] Jared Sparks: Drive a tractor and how to balance a checkbook and how to invest those sorts of things that are deeply theological and have, you know, they’re, they’re in the category of adoption of sons, you know, where we have the spirit of God. So now we’ve lived differently than the way the world, you know, the way the world lives.

[00:29:12] Jared Sparks: Okay. So, Hey, Brian, let me ask you this you’re building stuff right now. We’re talking about building institutions. We’re talking about winning, going out there and crushing it, leaving something beyond your star, our generation, leaving something for our kids and grandkids. Okay. You’re bill. Um, a school you’re asking people to move to Ogden, Utah, and I’m asking people to move to Carbondale, Illinois.

[00:29:31] Jared Sparks: Why in the world are you starting a school right now? And what’s your hopes with St. Bernard? I think it’s St. Bernard, by the way,

[00:29:40] Brian Sauvé: St. Brendan’s

[00:29:41] Jared Sparks: St. Brendan’s Saint St. Bernard is the

[00:29:43] Jared Sparks: dog.

[00:29:44] Brian Sauvé: Although whoa, that’s true. That’s true. It would be easier to make a logo with St. Bernard, but yeah, so. We’re talking about the gospel, making people write the gospel, making people and, and producing essentially renovation and renewal in every aspect of what it means to be.

[00:30:08] Brian Sauvé: That’s. I mean, that’s what we’re talking about. When we talk about sanctification and also building all we’re doing is we’re saying, well, God created human beings with an educational side. God created human beings with a vocational paradigm. God created human beings with a sexual or relational and ecclesial, like, I mean, all these different parts of what it means to be human.

[00:30:31] Brian Sauvé: If we expect for the gospel to renovate humanity into the image of the God. Then we should expect that to affect all these areas. So when you look at the duties that a father has in his home, it’s very much that he’s supposed to raise his children in the the Lord, Ephesians six, four, the discipline and instruction.

[00:30:54] Brian Sauvé: And really it’s like in the total inculturation of what it means to be a human being molded after the image of Christ. So. If you understand the scope of that, you see how important it is that. Educate our children, Christian. And that implies that we ought to have things surrounding communities of Christians, local churches, like homeschooling co-ops robust homeschooling environments, um, and Christian schools.

[00:31:26] Brian Sauvé: So we’re doing that a and obedience to those texts because we want to teach our children in integrated. Do you have. That every subject is true because of the Lordship of Christ, math, science, history, it all relates. And at the same time to protect them from being discipled. The image of another God, which is what happens in public school or in any non robust, robust lead, anything it’s not robustly Christian education.

[00:31:58] Brian Sauvé: So that’s one reason another would be that how in the world are we supposed to reach out then Utah and Utah, which is probably going to take a few centuries. Um, unless we build people who are going to be here longer than us. Right. So we want to build a community with gravity that our children don’t just fling out.

[00:32:19] Brian Sauvé: You know, Willy nilly though, the Lord might send them somewhere. But we want gravity that pulls people in and that keeps the people that are here and teach them how to live so that we can slowly take ground here in Utah and have a platform to actually reach and disciple the nations in Utah. And in some ways that’s a little different from, I think like Carbondale where Carbondale, if I were designing a place to move, I would rather move to a place like Carbondale than a place like that.

[00:32:48] Brian Sauvé: Right. I’d rather move to a place with space and land and you can take things up in been stuff’s really expensive. It’s difficult, but that just ups the ante of how, how much we need to build a community with gravity. So people can actually survive here and thrive and multiply even in the wilderness and do that for the glory of God, for the good of our families.

[00:33:10] Brian Sauvé: And also for the sake of the gospel in Utah. Long-term.

[00:33:16] Jared Sparks: Yeah, that’s really good. And I just want to make a note. You all have heard it right from Brian’s mouth. You should move to Carbondale, Illinois and not act like you’re tall. So anybody that’s listening in and considering where to move

[00:33:27] Scott Tungay: something about, we all heard it best,

[00:33:30] Jared Sparks: best wisdom here.

[00:33:31] Jared Sparks: You know, we got land houses, property build. Uh, so I love it. Yeah. And I think that, uh, you know, that idea of expecting. Over the long haul that our work is not in vain when we’re working as unto the Lord and we’re training up men to take responsibility in their homes and spear sovereignty is going to be something that we’re going to do a show on.

[00:33:53] Jared Sparks: And Brian, and I’m going to, we’re going to be asking you to take the lead on that, by the way. Uh, now that you know, I just announced that at some point here in the near future, we’ll talk about sphere sovereignty and, and Kuypers, you know, vision of, of government from, from the self outward. And, uh, but as we’re building these.

[00:34:09] Jared Sparks: You know, homes and households within our churches and within our friendships, the expectation is, Hey, Everybody else is saying how terrible it’s going to be for your children in 20 years. But if you live in the way, God would have you live. You can actually set them up to succeed very well. When everything else, it may be burning around them, but they’re going to be thriving and we’re going to be, you know what, enjoying some brisket and we’re going to be having a great 4th of July celebration.

[00:34:33] Jared Sparks: We’re going to have a lot of fun in the midst of it. We can set them up in that way. If we, if we live in that manner and expect that God’s going to bless the fruit of her hands. So Scott, anything to add, man? Yeah, I

[00:34:42] Scott Tungay: think that’s what you and Brian are doing. As you’re building institutional power, you know, I think that’s been the biggest problem is we’ve trusted.

[00:34:50] Scott Tungay: Like you said, Brian, we’ve given our kids to another God’s institutions. We’ve given our kids to other priests avail institutions. And so it’s so great to see, you know, guys who are building institutions where it’s like, no, we’re going to have institutional power. We’re going to set the frame. We’re going to, uh, control.

[00:35:12] Scott Tungay: Uh, what goes on, cause that’s part of patriarchy, right. Is being a patriarch, is setting the frame for your family, setting the frame for your business, setting the frame for your church. And man, that’s just, it’s so exciting to see. So God bless you, brother. That’s really awesome.

[00:35:26] Brian Sauvé: Thank you.

[00:35:27] Jared Sparks: Okay guys, let’s turn the corner here.

[00:35:28] Jared Sparks: What are you excited about as you’re looking at the landscape locally and then also, you know, nationally and the Twitter verse in the, in the internet world, what are you excited about? For the guys that are listening into this show and they’re going to be wanting to listen to the show, they’re sharing with their buddies saying, Hey, there’s a new show.

[00:35:44] Jared Sparks: That’s out. You gotta check this out. And, uh, the kind of guy that would want to listen to a show like this, what are you excited about? And what do you see God doing? Right now within the church in light of 20, 20, 20, 21, and these big ideas that we’ve been, you know, able to identify patriarchy post millennialism, whatever it may be, that all this stuff that we’re going to be talking about in the future, what are you excited about and what, and what you see God doing in the life of men all over the place?

[00:36:12] Brian Sauvé: That’s a good question, Jared. So many things that come to mind, but I think all of them boil down to, um, there are a lot of men in the church who are getting. And they’re, they’re, they’re properly identifying where we’ve been played, where we’ve, where the walls have been breached. And I think also coming to the right solutions.

[00:36:35] Brian Sauvé: And what I’m really excited about in those solutions is that most of them understand and properly understand the importance of embracing smallness, slowness and, uh, intergenerationally. Right where you have, I think, early in some of the young, restless and reform stuff, there was a bug that got in that was like a software bug that ended up replicating a lot of bad stuff.

[00:37:01] Brian Sauvé: And it was the software bug of, I think it was Zack Eswine surprisingly who called it the big, fast, famous. Where in the foundations, it was like let’s plant churches. Let’s do this. Let’s let’s multiply like a good church is a multiplying church. Every five years, you should be spinning off three churches and go, go, go, go, go entrepreneurial-ism.

[00:37:25] Brian Sauvé: But it was like a shallow entrepreneurial-ism that wasn’t based in deep Christian maturity. Um, it wasn’t based in a deep building of men and. Uh, corrective to that. I think I’m really excited about it and got like Michael Foster and what he was doing in Batavia. Um, I see just there there’s example, after example, what you guys are doing are Urbandale and just embracing people.

[00:37:53] Brian Sauvé: Let’s do it. Let’s be okay. Let’s be okay with preaching people out, regularizing people easily be and building the people that we have because we understand the power of a handwritten. Of godly patriarchs and what they can do in the second, third, fourth generation, uh, what the Lord can do through that.

[00:38:13] Brian Sauvé: It’s just, we’re okay. With small, we don’t need to go get in these big, fast, famous institutions that are already exist and just try to like get power in those big institutions. We’re just like, forget about this. We don’t need them. And I think that’s really exciting.

[00:38:29] Scott Tungay: Yeah, that’s really good, brian. I think I’m, I’m excited, you know, kind of adding to that, this kind of death as well of the mega leader. We need a Protestant Pope to lead us into the next generation. It was like, no, no, like there’s now this thing of like, okay, if it’s gonna, this was part of the patriarchal mindset as if it’s going to be it’s up to me and that’s not in like a, oh, I I’m doing this on my own. God. It’s like, no, no. As a surrendered vessel to God, I’m going to step out and

[00:38:56] Scott Tungay: become an Abraham.

[00:38:57] Scott Tungay: And Abraham in my region become a David in my region, become a Joseph in my region. And I think that’s what I’m so excited about is this, you know, Elijah going to the cave and be like, God, am I the only one? And God’s like, no, there’s 7,000 other dudes go back down that road and do what I told you to do.

[00:39:14] Scott Tungay: And I think there’s so many guys who have been camping out in the cave who are like, they finally getting the message, like I said, they’re finally getting it, go back on the road that I told you to and go do what I told you to go do. And there’s this, this almost like a, you know, it’s so you look at it and surgeons, guerrilla war.

[00:39:31] Scott Tungay: They’re so hard to fight. Uh, the, the establishment are, are so hard done by because they just want to take out a leader. All right, guys, we got been locked in the war’s over and it’s like, no, no one really cares. They’re all carrying on because this is not about the big show. The big celebrity, the big church, the big pastor.

[00:39:51] Scott Tungay: No. This is about changing my little town that I love. This is about, uh, changing the future for my children and my grandchildren that I love. This is about, um, working my one little gift as unto the Lord whom I love. And that’s unstoppable by, you know, some corporate war machine.

[00:40:09] Jared Sparks: Yeah, dynamite stuff. It just today, guys, wherever you are listening in today, whatever day, this, this release is on.

[00:40:16] Jared Sparks: Enjoy your day right now, enjoy what God has given you and look at your life. You know, Scott was talking about talents earlier. What has he given you? What’s the kingdom that he’s entrusted to you? This moment right now, enjoy it. Thank the Lord for it. And then whatever you have the rest of this day, just one thing at a time, one responsibility, a time, do what God has called you to do, and put your hand to the plow, do the work and enjoy the work that God has given you.

[00:40:42] Jared Sparks: And as we do that with these different levels and layers of responsibility that God has given us individual personal holiness. The family that God has given you, whether that is a wife and children, or whether that is a church family, uh, even, or even personal like siblings or spiritual children that you’re investing in, whatever the kingdom is that God has entrusted to you.

[00:41:02] Jared Sparks: Okay. Be a good steward of what he’s given you, invest in it, pour your life into it and enjoy it. And then each day, one day at a time, enjoy the day, worship the Lord through that day and honor him through. Doing what he’s called you to do with what he’s given you. And I’m really excited about, you know, large famous, fast, the syn book, imperfect pastor.

[00:41:24] Jared Sparks: That was really a paradigm shift for me in ministry as well. Brian was so helpful. And, uh, for guys that are listening, man, just go out. Scott’s always talking about crushing it, man. Just go out today. Enjoy today, don’t get lost in a pipe dream of thinking about what may be in the future. Dreaming can be a very good thing, but if you dream your way out of what’s in front of you right now, the responsibilities and obligations God has given you, then you never actually get there because you don’t take care of what’s in front of you and what God has given you, that’s right in front of you.

[00:41:51] Jared Sparks: And so crush it today, see what the Lord does, and then, uh, you know, build those institutions. But those institutions don’t get built without enjoying and taking responsibility. What God’s given you. You guys got anything else for today? I mean, for the show, anything else to wrap it up?

[00:42:07] Jared Sparks: There we go. Right? I know. Right. Go enjoy the rest of the day. Hey guys, this has been a lot of fun and everybody to it, and please share this subscribe, follow what Brian’s doing with his music and everything that’s going on in Ogden and follow him on social media. He’s a lot of fun to listen to and watch.

[00:42:20] Jared Sparks: And Scott, you were telling us about something you were telling me before we got online about something that’s going to be coming out. And you’re really soon. In fact, by the time this. What you were telling me about is going to be live. So why don’t you go ahead and just tell, tell people what, what you have going on now with the podcast?

[00:42:32] Scott Tungay: Yeah, man, I’ve been getting all of my live streams, uh, pulling all the auto audio and getting that onto a podcast form. So, uh, you know, I don’t think a lot of guys are, are big into sitting down and watching a guy talk for an hour on video, but, uh, you can, while you’re driving or mowing or whatever, listen to a podcast, I’m excited about that.

[00:42:49] Scott Tungay: We’re going to be. Uh, launching a podcast called courage, my lads. And it’ll basically just be all of my, uh, my live stream videos going straight to podcasts. So, pretty awesome.

[00:43:00] Jared Sparks: All right, guys, we’ll be back next week. We’ve been on the Majesty’s men show with Scott and Bryan guys. Thanks so much for being with.

[00:43:13] TMM Manly Voice: Thanks for joining us on the mission with The Majesty’s Men for show notes, go to There you can also submit questions and suggestions for the hosts. If you’re interested in joining the HNR.GD Network type in H N R dot G D into your browser to learn more and apply.

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The Majesty's Men

The Majesty's Men

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